When you ask, “am I being valued as a dancer, as much as I should be?”
Lili Pfeifer is a wellspring of balance. Beautifully brazen, she strides across a beam of empowerment, poised in equalizing her physical and mental well-being- and sharing her experience.
The Barbell Ballerina is a dancer with the Ballet Chicago Studio Company, a NASM certified Personal Trainer, and a private dance teacher. She graduated from the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor with her Bachelors of Science in Neuroscience and Gender & Health in May 2020.
Choosing to continue to pursue performing arts after earning pre-med degrees, Lili also determinedly emerged as a college graduate during the beginning of tumultuous pandemic lockdowns.
Accordingly, Lili has a multi-faceted understanding of dedication, mental health issues as amplified during the pandemic, and the growth of the dance world amongst problematic standards.
So, logging in for our Friday morning Zoom meeting, I was excited for the opportunity to chat with her and grateful that she happily made time in her busy schedule to chat.
Hannah: Tell me a bit about your background? From schooling to what you are up to now, introduce yourself for our blog readers!
Lili: I had an interesting path. I was pre-med at the University of Michigan, and I danced in a student company there. So, I just kept up my technique and everything. But, once I graduated, I realized I wanted to dance for a little longer, and then maybe go back to school for medicine later.
Right now, I am dancing with Ballet Chicago. I also got certified to be a personal trainer last year, so I have started an online coaching business, and I am also working for a gym. I teach ballet on Zoom as well, because that was something I picked up during the pandemic when a lot of us weren’t really sure what to do during lockdown.
I kind of wear a lot of hats! *laughs*
So yeah, right now, I am mostly just dancing, teaching, and training.
Hannah: How many days a week do you train with Ballet Chicago?
Lili: It is 6 days a week. During the normal season, it is 6 or 7 hours a day, but right now, during the summer, it is only 3 hours.
Hannah: So you have a bit more time to build your website and coaching during the summer.
Now, I was hoping we can go into talking about the classical ballet repertoire.
I am less informed about Ballet Chicago repertoire choices, but I know many classical pieces have been unchanged, with ballets such as Nutcracker and Coppelia still being performed over a century later.
A lot of people have talked about how the plot lines of these ballets are misogynistic. That the female characters submit to their male counterparts. Additionally, mental illnesses can be glorified or romanticized in dance works. For instance, Odette throwing herself into the lake and committing su*cide at the end of Swan Lake.
Do you feel as though the Classical ballet repertoire impacts dancers’ mental health, and if so, do you believe there is a different repertoire path the ballet world should be moving towards?
Lili: Yes. I think the current repertory that we do have can be very impactful towards young dancers, because that’s kind of what we see growing up, and that is what we think ballet is. There becomes not much else outside of that framework, and like you said, female characters playing the victim role is a huge thing, same with glorifying mental illness. All of it is very toxic and problematic, and I think growing up and seeing that is not ideal for young dancers.
I do however think there is a slow shift happening towards more contemporary works in the sense of contemporary ideas. I feel as though companies choosing to perform older works that have those problematic ideals need to shift faster. I am looking forward to new choreographers and artistic leadership though, like when our generation takes over, bringing more modern and relevant works to the stage.
Hannah: Going off of this idea of shift of leadership once a new generation takes over, your generation, I still wonder more about the impacts of the older generation.
I know George Balanchine set in the 1960s for dancers, the standard that they should have thin bodies, elegant lines, be long and lean, etc. Do you think that kind of mentality for the older generations of ballet teachers has had a poor influence on a dancer’s body image, or even their approach to fitness?
Lili: Absolutely. And I think that the fact that Balanchine is known as the premiere American choreographer, his words have set a standard, even for today unfortunately.
That’s something I actually wanted to bring up- body image affecting mental health.
Even for me in high school, that is kind of when all of those ideas started to take place. Like, oh, maybe I should change the way I look so I am better, or get more attention in dance class, become more respected by my peers, etc. All of that kind of came tumbling in, but I am very lucky to have since then worked on my own body image, found fitness in a healthy way, and fuel my body properly. So, I no longer really have those negative ideas about my body, but unfortunately, that is not a reality for a lot of dancers.
The expectations for dancers have had a really negative impact for decades now.
Hannah: I remember seeing on your Instagram, @the.barbell.ballerina, a discussion you created about the poorly answered question by the New York Times of, “What is a ballet body?”
So, two questions with that in mind: What do you define to be a ballet body? Could you talk more on your belief that the dance world has contributed to problems with disordered eating and body dysmorphia?
Lili: I think a ballet body is a body that wants to dance. It does not matter what you look like. There are so many different types of people, and having to conform to a box takes the joy out of ballet. But that is what dancing is about. It is fun, it is a way to express yourself. It should never be about the pressure of looking a certain way.
That being said, I do think you also need to take into account skill or talent, but those are things that can be cultivated over time.
Personally, if I were to start a company right now, I would make sure there is a wide range of dancers, as long as the dancers have technique down, artistry down, etc. As long as you’re good on that front, it does not matter what you look like.
I think the dance world has really contributed to body image issues for dancers. I believe it is an issue of perfectionism. There is a standard, as we talked about, and everyone has to live up to it. Thinking back to the New York Times article, I feel as though the author was unqualified to write what they did, and talk about what they did.
With leadership, I feel like a lot of leadership now thinks like the generation of Balanchine. All of those ideas have influenced them and they are still looking for dancers that fit that original mold. But, we HAVE to move on, you know?
Hannah: So to be on a road of improvement, and getting to a place of positive body image, do you believe it is possible to change the mindset of the old generation, or do you think we need to wait until new leadership kind of takes over?
Lili: I think, maybe a bit of both. It is really hard to change people’s minds once they have been doing something for over 40 years or so. It is also hard to get all of these directors in one place and have conversations about this kind of thing. It would be great if there were workshops on being more accepting and inclusive, where directors from all over would attend, but I feel like that’s very unlikely due to logistics.
I do think a lot of leaders from our generation are going to make huge, sweeping changes, so I am very excited for that.
I actually auditioned for a couple of companies this year that value the health of their dancers, that have that priority as a mission. Making sure mental health, physical health, emotional health is all there, was one of their main selling points, so I think change is happening.
But, a lot of change is going to have to come from money, which, we know the arts are underfunded, so that is really difficult. We aren’t at the current financial place where every company can have their own therapist. But, hopefully, someday.
Hannah: I keep thinking about how change is logistically challenging, and it is hard to change the mindset of the older generations. However, what would you tell young dancers, who are aware of this difficult and slow process of change? What would you say to those, who are afraid of how long it is going to take to have new leadership, or are struggling because they don’t like current leadership?
Lili: I think, and this is really, really difficult, that they need to stand up when they see something wrong.
I have been thrown into this myself this year, with knowing when to speak up, and when to let things simmer. Dancers, especially around my age in their early 20s, have a huge role in being able to shift things in the right direction. They can be aware of what is going on, and speak up when something is wrong or problematic.
Yes, it is really hard, because the directors are the ones employing you, and there are consequences.
Hannah: Maybe though, if your body, health, or wellbeing isn’t respected, you will find that maybe you need to be somewhere you will be respected more.
Moving to a conversation about exclusivity in the dance world, do you believe that the idea of the “ballet body” has exacerbated exclusivity in the dance world? Has body image standards created inclusivity problems in the dance world, especially in terms of race?
For instance, how a lot of “ballet nude” colors, for leotards and tights, are for white people.
Lili: Yes, I think everything from our standard ideal body, to just the range of tight colors being very limited to lighter skin tones, all paints a picture of what a dancer should look like. And, anybody who doesn’t fit that look, doesn’t fit in.
I know there are a lot of dancewear brands recently expanding their lines of colors or sizes, so that is great, but growing up, it was definitely more limited. It is something obviously I have never had to think about due to my privilege. But, I can see how a lot of dancers would be turned off from ballet, knowing their skin color is not catered towards.
Hannah: So there is a lot of imbalance and exclusivity, the dance world needs to continue challenging.
Now I was hoping to talk more about relationships with food and body dysmorphia- still with intersectionality in mind, that everyone’s backgrounds are different. What would you say to a dancer who does have a fear of food, or is struggling with body dysmorphia?
Lili: This is a very relevant topic in the dance world. I would highly suggest anybody who’s going through disordered eating or a bad relationship with food to seek help through a nutritionist or a therapist. Even talking to your directors in your school or your company to be able to get the help you need. When those types of things are unchecked, they can become extremely detrimental and have really bad consequences.
I am not a nutritionist, so I don’t want to speak on their behalf, but I suggest trying to remember that your body is doing very high, intense levels of training, and in order to do that, you need to fuel it properly to avoid injury and care for your mental well-being.
Hannah: Have you ever approached topics of body image or nutrition in your personal coaching sessions or your own teaching?
Lili: Yes. A lot of clients struggle with this, and I think that is just a product of growing up in our society. But, I try to approach it with a very holistic mindset. I’m not just all about your physical health with training and fitness, but I am also concerned about my client’s mental health. Creating healthy habits to be able to support you long term.
When things like body image and eating come up, I try to take that same approach that food is fuel for all the intense training we’re doing. Even if you are not training, you still need to eat on your rest days just as much. Your body knows what it needs because our bodies are very smart.
I am definitely all about not restricting. I know some trainers will cut clients to a certain calorie amount, but the problem I see most with clients is them not eating enough. So, I will bump them up and make sure they are eating enough to meet their needs.
Hannah: For very serious, professional athletes that do need to maintain a certain level of nutrients for their energy and body, how do you think they can strike that balance between nutrition and cravings? What if someone is struggling with food, and wants to go on an intuitive eating route- to eat exactly what their body is craving- but, perhaps conversely, needs to maintain their nutritional intake?
Lili: I think just making sure that throughout the day you are including all of your macros and micros, that you are getting fruits, veggies, grains, protein- all that good stuff- but also honoring your cravings when you have them.
If I am craving a brownie at like 10am, I am going to eat that brownie then and there, because then that craving won’t get worse throughout the day, and I won’t want to binge at the end of the day. Ultimately, ignoring your cravings contributes to that disordered eating pattern. So, having that mindset, that I can eat healthy most of the time, but I can also have the foods I am craving.
Hannah: I know on my path to a better relationship with food highly involved intuitive eating. There was an internal struggle for me at the beginning, where it was scary allowing myself to ignore what I originally thought I could allow myself to eat. At first, I was eating things that had less nutritional benefits through the day, but eventually, it balanced. I do think that your body, with time, can start to have more nutritionally well rounded cravings. Once you realize that the food you deemed unhealthy can be eaten whenever you do crave it, and doesn’t need to be restricted, I think your mind calms down.
It can be a little weird at first with intuitive eating, but then it is awesome when you really learn how to listen to your body. Your body has its own way of telling you exactly what nutrients it is needing, you just need to learn what that way is and listen.
Lili: Yes, and even with food people consider unhealthy, that is still just glucose that is going to fuel your brain and your body.
Sometimes, I crave a salad. Which is not often. *laughs* But then I will go eat a salad. Listen to your body, yeah.
Hannah: So I guess you also would agree then, with the idea that food is food, There is no bad food, there is no good food, everything is just food. All food has a purpose, and fuels you physically and/or emotionally.
Lili: Yeah, I do.
Hannah: So we see food and body image anxiety in dancers. With other types of anxiety too then, like performance anxiety, or generalized anxiety, do you think the dance world as an institution cultivates anxiety in dancers?
Or, is it more of just the stress of being a performer, going out on stage, being right next to colleagues in rehearsal, etc?
Lili: I think it is both the dance world as a whole and the environment. It is competitive. There are very high expectations from both company leadership, and the pressure we put on ourselves.
The perfectionism I was talking about earlier is not just in terms of how our bodies look, but also our athletic performance and the competitive aspect of working with other performers.
Competing for a certain role contributes to anxiety, and then working for the goal of a performance on stage gets very stressful. A lot of times, things can get pulled together at the last minute. You might get thrown into a role that you were not originally expecting.
Plus, just like how rigorous the training is for dancers growing up, there are teachers that can be borderline abusive. From how they structure their classes, to how much they expect out of students- it can be with very little regard for dancers’ mental well-being.
It gets into this idea of viewing our bodies as products. If you can’t make certain stuff happen, you might feel like you’re worthless or treated as such.
Hannah: What would you suggest to a dancer dealing with that anxiety who needs help?
Lili: Definitely leaning on your support group of friends at dance, talking to your parents, and if you have the emotional capacity to, try to talk to your directors. Attempt to explain what you are going through, because hopefully, they will be a lot more understanding, and if not, find a different place to dance.
Because, as much as I sh*t talk ballet, there are places that are welcoming and want to support you. Finding that is the hardest part.
Obviously too, seek out a therapist if you need one.
Hannah: I think that can be super important in the performing arts world. If you are not getting the support you need, find someone or somewhere else, rather than destroying your well-being.
Let’s say there is favoritism in your dance company, and you are not getting roles you want… how do you find that balance of happiness if you are not achieving what you want? Do you wait and work at that company, or do you decide to work somewhere else? How do you decide, and how do you feel like you can keep your happiness up, even if you’re not getting what you want?
Lili: I think that comes down to a very individual choice. Some people will want to work more at consistency, and develop relationships with a company. Then, maybe the next season, they will be a bit more successful if they wait it out.
But, there is also absolutely no harm in seeing what else is out there. Developing new networks in the dance world. So much about the performing arts is about networking. It comes down to, I guess, weighing the pros and cons. Also, a lot of cities, like Chicago for example, have a lot of opportunities for dance with auditions, master classes, etc. Different companies to network with. For me, that is why I am staying in Chicago another year. I just really want to capitalize on that.
Lili: With finding happiness, I think it is important for dancers to have an outlet besides ballet, because a lot of times, we can make it our entire life. Have other ways to express yourself, engage with other kinds of people… for me, I am very happy doing personal training on the side, because it is a whole other community and way of thinking.
Hannah: So happiness can come from support, patience, and outside outlets.
Lili: That reminds me, I wanted to touch on injuries.
Artistic staff sometimes do not respect injuries in the dance world, which contributes to mental health issues.
There is this standard, that we need to push through pain and injury- which is very problematic.
Again, we need artistic leadership that cares for not only our physical abilities and peak performance, but our mental well being.
Hannah: You don’t pick the timing to get an injury. The unrealistic pressure that you can push through the pain can lead to a much worse injury.
Lili: Yeah, it is times like that, where a director or colleague might expect you to dance through the pain, that can stick with you. When you ask, “am I being valued as a dancer, as much as I should be?”
Know your value. Put yourself in an environment where you know how to be and feel supported.
The picture we paint of a performing artist shouldn’t be a simple illustration of peak physical performance. A fit dancing body, strong vocals, nimble fingers- will never be enough. Mental fitness needs to be just as high and taken care of.
Your body needs fuel like your mind needs self-care. You shouldn’t make excuses as to why one of the two can be ignored or put on a back burner. Further, if leadership makes those excuses, that isn’t a situation where you are being valued as much as you should be.
Contact and/or learn more from Lili by visiting her Instagram page and website! Click the icons below:
Performing well 